Curse

Lykan · Jun 09, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

A well placed Diversion will halve a touch rangers damage output, if you get a second one on as well all they can do is run.
Spiteful spirit will sort em out too as most wil be spamming and not watching their status bar.

zulu123 · Jun 09, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

A well placed Diversion will halve a touch rangers damage output, if you get a second one on as well all they can do is run.
Spiteful spirit will sort em out too as most wil be spamming and not watching their status bar.

There we go... more skills that are anti-warrior too. Can anyone make a list of skills that are anti-touch ranger and NOT anti-warrior?

Here are skills that are anti-warrior but dont work against touch rangers:

Empathy,
Insidious Parasite,
Enfeeble,
Throw Dirt,
Blinding Flash ,
Ward against melee,
Kinetic armor,
reckless haste,
price of failure,
spirit of failure,
Protective Spirit,
Shield Guardian

Being a 'noob' that cannot learn to counter I am sure I have missed tons of other anti-warrior skills that dont work against touch rangers. Even then, please at least give me 12 skills that are purely anti-touch ranger.

S!carius · Jun 09, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

^^ your post is quite off topic. (mine is too, sorry)

Anyway, why do you need 12 skills that are anti-touch ranger? Why not just have a necro throw on SS (anti-warrior and anti touch all in one skill). Also, take a snare, most groups will have a snare with them (again, anti-warrior and anti-touch ranger). You only need a skill or two, that most people will bring anyways, to counter them.

zulu123 · Jun 09, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by S!carius

^^ your post is quite off topic. (mine is too, sorry)

Anyway, why do you need 12 skills that are anti-touch ranger? Why not just have a necro throw on SS (anti-warrior and anti touch all in one skill). Also, take a snare, most groups will have a snare with them (again, anti-warrior and anti-touch ranger). You only need a skill or two, that most people will bring anyways, to counter them.

The point of my post is simply this: I see many people claim that touch rangers are ok and can be easily countered. Almost all of the counters they mention work against warriors too, since they also have to operate in touch range. So we have a huge set of skills that are anti-warrior, but only a tiny subset of those are anti-touch ranger. Adding that to amount of armor ignoring damage + self-healing + defence that touch rangers have makes them unbalanced.

Dravyn · Jun 09, 2006, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Learn to play is no defense whatsoever when the build you're playing against can only be properly countered in a way that would reduce your effectiveness against any other build. For people who feel like this is a valid argument, give examples of successful ways to deal with a build like touch rangers that are generally available across the board, or stfu (I'm sorry to be so blunt, but I'm getting tired of this psuedo-elitist 'you should counter me' attitude).
Generally a good build will have interrupts, snares, damage reduction and hex/enchantment/condition removal. A good player in all circumstances, except against a touch ranger or similarly out of control build, will be able to apply a skill bar so designed to deal with a balanced build. An occassional blind spot is understandable. Touch rangers (to my knowledge the only build like it) ARE the blind spot. Touch rangers are countered well by one class (mesmers), and GOOD touch rangers are not so easily destroyed by e-denial and snares. (I made a touch ranger that laughed at snare builds, then killed them because I could). In my opinion, a build is out of balance when the meta-game must adapt to deal with that build even though, were it not for that build, such adaptions would otherwise be broadly undesirable, considering every other build extant. For example, warrior hate is a broad strategic area that should include strategy applied by (nearly) every class and build. There is almost no cross-class, cross build hate for touch skills and stances (nor do I think there should be, as this is the appeal of skills and stances). The problem isn't so much touch rangers as an idea, however, as it is the ability of the class to accomplish goals that every other build wishes it could achieve but doesn't, because they have been balanced to prevent such accomplishments.

QFT. Plus show me any other class in the game that can compress their entire damage AND healing capability into two skill slots, leaving six free for whatever anti-counters they want.

lyra_song · Jun 09, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

Psychic Distraction Mesmers. Why is it broken? Because it can't be stopped. Mantra of resolve and glyph of concentration do not affect PD.

lol i LOVE PsyD. Sure its spammable, but its only really effective vs skill-reliant builds. Wars can DPS right through it.

Its a powerful skill with a HUGE cost, so i think its balanced.

Kriel Drache · Jun 09, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

All most uber builds need to be countered is one skill. I shut down Touch Rangers on a regular basis with just one spell. However, my current build of choice is also very weak against certain builds. There is a counter for every skill. It just takes some thinking to find it.

MSecorsky · Jun 09, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mai

Moving, Snaring, Learning to play, etc etc

All of the above can easily kill a touch ranger since one has to "touch" you to do any damage.

Here's the easy way my assassin counters them...

Binding Chains.

Go kill someone else and leave them stuck there.

Navaros · Jun 09, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Only people who are not good at the game call people who beat them newbies or insult their build.

Over the history of Guild Wars Anet has always way over-nerfed things that did not need nerfing at all. Ie: smiting, IWAY.

This makes the game less fun because any common build that does not completely suck will cause mass hysteria amongst bad players who make illegitimate complaints about it until Anet caves to them and nerfs it.

That trend leaves people with even less quick-party builds to choose from, and just makes Guild Wars PVP even more uninteresting because every time Anet nerfs the latest common build that bad players complain about, everyone will just migrate to the newer one until Anet unjustly nerfs that too. Then the cycle continues, resulting in one single build dominating PVP as a direct result of Anet's unnecessary nerfing. Whereas if they stopped nerfing things due to mass hysteria of bad players, there would be many common quick-party builds to choose from by now and much more variety and fun in PVP.

Touch rangers do not need nerfing. A time for the end to the nerfing madness must come. That time is now.

Symbol · Jun 09, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Knew that would come up, my bad for not limiting the focus of that statement. A good touch ranger is difficult, if not impossible, to kite. Kite me and I will use Escape to rush hit you, back off when you least expect, and run over to your monk (or appropriate priority soft target) who's position I've been keeping track of on the map (if playing a touch ranger).

So your solution to kiting is switching targets and/or a speedboost? How is this unique to touch rangers? Kiting is effective whether you're up against a warrior or a touch ranger.

Quote:

Kiting works well on an assassin (limited chase mechanisms, need to combo), but a touch ranger has enough tricks to mitigate kiting concerns.

You have exactly one trick, a speedboost. That's it. Touchers aren't any harder to kite than any other melee range class.

Quote:

Note also that Crippled is a condition, that is transferrable by PT, so that's not happening (In my Touch Ranger experience I once went up against a monk, a ranger, a warrior and an elementalist. The ranger and warrior smacked me with multiple conditions (crippled, blind, deep wound, bleeding), hoping to kill me early ... I just dropped those conditions off on their monk, and proceeded to suck him dry.)

Anyone who isn't retarded isn't going to stick around once they've crippled you...

Sanji · Jun 09, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

There's a fine line between covering all bases with legitimate reasons why a build is broken and going "It's broken because I can't beat it."

While there ARE legitimate uses of "it's fine, learn to play" of course there are some people who say that when they actually mean "It's not broken because I play this build."

Gargle Blaster · Jun 09, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

i just wish people could have a real discussion about skill balancing. for example the thread on touch rangers... it seems to have turned into a bitch fest over the fact that people dont like nerfs... i notice none of the facts about touch rangers ever came up(yea i know i started it... i am almost regretting it now)... like what is the DPS of a touch ranger? how does that compare to the dps of degen? what are the standards to determin how one skill balances another? there are alot of real issues we could be talking about --but yall like to complain about complainig too much.

Eviance · Jun 09, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorian Direspell

Eviance, I was hardly angry at you. Generally, I agree with your posts.

I didn't think you were hun and you are one of the few people who agree with my posts but I love you just the same

(That word elitest gets to me like nothing else tho -_- sorry!)

However I think if every class worked at it they could find a counter. I mean look at IWAY, there are still so many people shouting this exact same argument, it's broke, over powered, should be fixed and so forth..... But while all this might be true and not every team or person can over come an IWAY - it IS possible and that was my only point, that if these people who complain so much work at it they can find a way to beat it. The problem with randoms is that it is random and teams are often thrown together with a monk and damage. I am sure tho that a really good practiced guild team could come up with some way. Ya can't counter everything all the time and this is the biggest issue in all areas, but that is part of the game. You are never going to find anything that can counter across the board.... and if you do.... PM ME

Cause I have indeed looked into this and our guild came up with a viable way to deal with most in HoH but we still have issues with ranger spike -_-

But it seems that more knowledgable people have come into the debate so I will indeed step out *bows* Thanks for the pleasant response and I hope you don't think I was flaming you, I just always seem to come across like that

(Honestly it's a habbit -_-)

Lykan · Jun 09, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulu123

There we go... more skills that are anti-warrior too. Can anyone make a list of skills that are anti-touch ranger and NOT anti-warrior?

Here are skills that are anti-warrior but dont work against touch rangers:

Empathy,
Insidious Parasite,
Enfeeble,
Throw Dirt,
Blinding Flash ,
Ward against melee,
Kinetic armor,
reckless haste,
price of failure,
spirit of failure,
Protective Spirit,
Shield Guardian

Being a 'noob' that cannot learn to counter I am sure I have missed tons of other anti-warrior skills that dont work against touch rangers. Even then, please at least give me 12 skills that are purely anti-touch ranger.

You think Diversion and Spiteful are purely anti warrior? Diversion is anti caster if anything and Spiteful works on every class going.
There are no anti-touch ranger skills because a touch ranger is not a class it is a build, to counter a build you look for the weaknesses in it.
You list skills that are anti-warrior but dont work against touch rangers? Why on earth should they? A touch ranger is nothing like a warrior. Every skill you have listed is a counter to a melee attack, touch rangers are not melee.
To counter you have to stop them touching you. Kite or shut down their skills.

Zorian Direspell · Jun 09, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

So your solution to kiting is switching targets and/or a speedboost? How is this unique to touch rangers? Kiting is effective whether you're up against a warrior or a touch ranger.

Quote:

You have exactly one trick, a speedboost. That's it. Touchers aren't any harder to kite than any other melee range class.

Quote:

Anyone who isn't retarded isn't going to stick around once they've crippled you...

Escape has evasion. Evasion may not be unique to touch rangers, but it is unique to rangers. The evasion rate is 75%. For the most part, you shouldn't get hit with any crippling attacks. When you are, escape takes you back up 25%, so you may catch the crippler, or, more likely, you'll catch one of their team mates who didn't watch you get crippled. If it's rare that a good crippler sticks around to admire the job, it's rarer still that a good player gets kited away from the rest of the action.

Kiting warriors is more effective because they lose adrenaline while they are being kited. Touch rangers gain energy. Touch rangers actually benefit from having enemies run away (because if you're running, you're doing nada and the TR is gaining energy, while flipping through a list of potential targets).

jummeth · Jun 09, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

A lot of if's there. Now lets go back to the starting point, what damage does a plain sword hit do in PvP to a warrior wearing AL 90 armor? I'm willing to bet its 0 more then a lv 24 creature does in PvE.

An axe can crit at around 80 on a 100AL. I don't understand your point. Bosses in PvE have double damage because they are dumb, and need to be buffed.

An intellegent player knows when to hit you with their adreno spike, so the effect is often more deadly. Eg. KD hit hit KD hit hit. An AI boss might get lucky, but it is done by design in PvP.

Edenial quite happily neuters touchers, they are rangers so have lower e-regen anyway, so you can plop surge, burn and weariness and slap ether lord, they are bottomed out and will stay bottomed, if thats not enough, blackout and boom they are useless.

If its a team, then you pick them off one by one, its tricky but it can be countered by normal balanced teams reasonably. The mesmer in question is a shutdown anti monk mesmer, so its not a special build either.

zulu123 · Jun 09, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lykan

You think Diversion and Spiteful are purely anti warrior? Diversion is anti caster if anything and Spiteful works on every class going.
There are no anti-touch ranger skills because a touch ranger is not a class it is a build, to counter a build you look for the weaknesses in it.
You list skills that are anti-warrior but dont work against touch rangers? Why on earth should they? A touch ranger is nothing like a warrior. Every skill you have listed is a counter to a melee attack, touch rangers are not melee.
To counter you have to stop them touching you. Kite or shut down their skills.

A touch ranger is like a warrior in the sense that they have to be in melee range to do any damage. All the counters everyone mentions against touch rangers apply to warriors also.

Please tell me how kiting or shutting down or degen is any different from using them against warriors? I listed anti-warrior skills to show how many counters exist against a them. The point was there are too many counter skills for warrior builds where as you or anyone has not been able to show me even 1 pure anti-touch ranger skill.

Every anti-warrior skill gives me a weakness in warriors. A simple excercise can prove that touch rangers are unbalanced. Simply list all skills that are anti-warrior. Then list skills that are anti-touch ranger. You will see for yourself how unbalanced those lists are.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 09, 2006, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorian Direspell

Escape has evasion. Evasion may not be unique to touch rangers, but it is unique to rangers. The evasion rate is 75%. For the most part, you shouldn't get hit with any crippling attacks. When you are, escape takes you back up 25%, so you may catch the crippler, or, more likely, you'll catch one of their team mates who didn't watch you get crippled. If it's rare that a good crippler sticks around to admire the job, it's rarer still that a good player gets kited away from the rest of the action.

Kiting warriors is more effective because they lose adrenaline while they are being kited. Touch rangers gain energy. Touch rangers actually benefit from having enemies run away (because if you're running, you're doing nada and the TR is gaining energy, while flipping through a list of potential targets).

Cripshot cannot be blocked/evaded. Semi-spammable. Gg? Besides, good touch rangers don't use escape, they use OoB. Energy is touches, which = life. Mesmer/ele snares, no evading those either.

This "touch rangers benefit from kiting" is really quite stupid. They benefit from getting less touches off on people, and gaining less health/dealing less damage? Don't think so. Besides, OoB is for energy management, relying on kiting to regain energy is...dumb. Oh, and this "kiting shuts down the person running" statement works both ways... they've shut you down too.

Lykan · Jun 09, 2006, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by zulu123

The point was there are too many counter skills for warrior builds where as you or anyone has not been able to show me even 1 pure anti-touch ranger skill.

Warriors are a character class which is why there are skills which can be called anti-warrior and as I said there are no skills which are specifically anti-touch ranger because they are not a class they are a build. The question your asking is like asking why are there no skills specifically made to work against blood spike or earth ele's or boon prots.
Anet didnt think about touch rangers and stick in a secret special skill just to counter them which will turn them into whimpering kittens.
To beat them you have to use what is available to you.

Gargle Blaster · Jun 09, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jummeth

An axe can crit at around 80 on a 100AL. I don't understand your point. Bosses in PvE have double damage because they are dumb, and need to be buffed.

An intellegent player knows when to hit you with their adreno spike, so the effect is often more deadly. Eg. KD hit hit KD hit hit. An AI boss might get lucky, but it is done by design in PvP.

Edenial quite happily neuters touchers, they are rangers so have lower e-regen anyway, so you can plop surge, burn and weariness and slap ether lord, they are bottomed out and will stay bottomed, if thats not enough, blackout and boom they are useless.

If its a team, then you pick them off one by one, its tricky but it can be countered by normal balanced teams reasonably. The mesmer in question is a shutdown anti monk mesmer, so its not a special build either.

the problem with a shutdown mesmer is that they are only a support char... they will not be able to kill a touch ranger alone... sure they can slow them from spaming skills but for the most part shutdown mesmers won't kill anyone. -- note that with expertiese thise skills dont need much energy-- it should also be noted that edenil keeps gettin hit with the nerf bat.